What Dying Nonprofits Can Learn from Startups with Dane Barnett

00:00:04
            

Well, hey there, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Holy Donuts podcast. Really excited to be joined today by Dane Barnett, who is the engagement manager at Medical Teams International. You're at a Grand Rapids up there, but the ministry is based in Portland. Shout out remote work for the win.        

00:00:21
            

Dane, how's it going, man? Thanks for being on the show. Good. Thanks so much for having me, Matt. I really appreciate the opportunity.        

00:00:27
            

Absolutely. Okay, so, engagement manager. I mean, literally, like, our tagline is like, this is a podcast on, like, nonprofit donor engagement. So obviously my heart beats for engagement manager. Tell us a little bit more about what that role means and kind of give us a little bit of backstory of how you got to medical teams international.        

00:00:44
            

Yeah. The title is, whenever I talk to anyone externally, I always say it's kind of a catch all for whatever doesn't fall into any other category. So my team does all of our donor events, as well as donor relations reports up to me as well. And then any additional opportunity that comes our way, any partnership opportunities, podcasts, conferences, school fundraising, church fundraising, and engagement, peer to peer fundraising, all of that is under me. I was going to ask medical teams International, for those who are not familiar with the ministry, give us a little bit of a rundown of kind of the ministry itself.        

00:01:24
            

What you all do, kind of who you serve. Yeah, that is a great question. We were founded in 1979 when our founder saw on the local news the cambodian refugee crisis, and he thought, I can do something about that. And like many great nonprofits, that's how it started, by somebody who was passionate and saw a need and thought, I can fill that need. So we were started in 1979.        

00:01:52
            

Our mission statement is daring to love. Like Jesus, we boldly break barriers to health and wholeness in a hurting world. I love that. I love that. Yeah.        

00:02:02
            

Yeah. So it's really. We have a really open tent where people from all faith backgrounds are welcome to be involved in our work. Our donors, our employees come from really diverse backgrounds and come froms, because as long as we understand the work of Jesus and what he was trying to do, you're welcome on our team, and you're welcome in our donor base. And now, 45 years later, we're about to celebrate our 45th anniversary in September.        

00:02:35
            

We are working in crisis zones around the world. We're in Ukraine, Sudan, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Colombia, and then we also have mobile dental clinics in the Pacific Northwest. And so we really pride ourselves in doing loving, life saving care. We care for the whole person. And so our work looks very different depending on the context in which we serve because we want to listen to the local populations and follow what they're saying that they need.        

00:03:09
            

That's so cool. Why don't we dive in? Let's go a little bit. You mentioned before starting, you said, hey, I'm tactician, but I'm also kind of philosopher, which resonates with me. I spend way too much time thinking thoughts instead of doing work sometimes.        

00:03:22
            

But let's dive into a little bit more of the nitty gritty. One of the things I always like to ask is about strategies, campaigns, but really it's what have you done in your time or what has your team done at your time that has really done a great job of engaging donors. Like, what's something that you can look back on, say, oh my gosh, we crushed it when we did that. And I love hearing about specifics because often, like, we learn the most from, oh, yeah, that's different than us. But I love hearing the specifics of like, what's worked well for you all with engaging donors.        

00:03:52
            

Yeah, back up just a little bit. I have a philosophy of the donor is the hero. In our story, we could not do any of the work we do around the world without our donors. And so every single thing we do has to go through that lens of how are we speaking to our donor is the hero. And whether they're a five dollar donor or a million dollar a year donor, we treat them with the same dignity and respect because that five dollar gift might be as much or more of a sacrifice than that million dollar gift was.        

00:04:31
            

And so obviously you have to scale your strategy. Right. Right. You're not sending a major gift lie to every $5 donor. Right.        

00:04:41
            

So that's kind of the lens through which we look at how we care for our donors and how I've done it throughout my career. And so when it comes to strategy and tactics, we look at how do we make this piece of communication, this thank you card, this thank you call as specific and personal as humanly possible. And obviously we have to scale it. We have a large donor file at medical teams, so we can't sit down and hand write a card to every five dollar donor. But we use tools like ignite post to make those cards feel personal.        

00:05:31
            

And then we can also write personal messages that can go into those mass produced cards. So strategies like that to really make it more scalable is really important for us. Something I am really proud of isn't necessarily a tactic, but the questions that we ask each other in our meetings, we sit down and we say what does this piece of communication or card or email or video or event or whatever we're doing that day add to our donors lives? We don't believe in just taking the money, saying thank you, and moving on. We want to build a relationship with our donors, and that means it's a give and a take.        

00:06:17
            

They're donating to us, and then how do we add value back to their lives? Through education opportunities. So every. We have a dedicated group of women called Healthy Women, Healthy World. And it's a group of our major donor women who lead a book club every other month.        

00:06:36
            

Yes. That's so cool that they read a novel or a nonfiction book together, and they invite our entire donor community to it. And those are the kinds of opportunities we look for to say, we're not only a transaction, but we want to be a part of your life. So how can I ask? Just a follow up question.        

00:06:54
            

Because one. Yes, and amen. Love that. How do you, in some ways, train donors? Right.        

00:07:01
            

So it's one thing to say that, but, like, a lot of donors are used to be being treated pretty poorly by the organizations they give to, unless they're a super major donor. But, like, let's think of, like, your average mid file donor, right? Like, that donor is like, they're not really on the radar of, like, hey, come to our president's, you know, luncheon and, like, meet with our executive team, and often they're kind of an overlooked. How do you, like, train your donors? Maybe that's the wrong word.        

00:07:24
            

Like, how do you help them understand, hey, our vision for you as really one of relationship and partnership, not one of transaction. Yeah, we just walk the walk. We show up. We. We call every new donor.        

00:07:39
            

It doesn't Matter how big or small your gift is, you get a phone call from someone at medical teams to say, thank you so much for your gift. Every donor gets a thank you card. And then we do, obviously, have exclusive opportunities for larger donors. But for our donor, for our events, everyone's invited. It doesn't Matter.        

00:08:03
            

We make sure we get a big enough venue and enough tables, make sure. Anyone who wants to. Yeah. Yes. Because I'm also a firm believer that.        

00:08:15
            

And there's obviously we. It's because we care, but there's also a strategy there that you might be giving $10 or $15, but the person you invite to go to the event with you might have a larger capacity than you or be connected to someone with a larger capacity. And I think oftentimes in our siloed strategy work, we miss those opportunities to say, well, that $15 donor might know a million dollar donor, but because we're treating them with such a small lens, they're going to return to us with a small lens, rather than saying, hey, how can we partner together and be together in this work? Right? Well, and there's so much too, like, we see this where we talk, you know, we talk to clients all the time about, like, hey, someone's coming in.        

00:09:01
            

Like, one, like, you know, if, if your ethics of an organization allow for it, wealth screen every donor, because just because someone gave you a, you know, monthly $15 gift doesn't mean they don't have the capacity to give you a monthly $5,000 gift. Right. And on top of that, you never know. To your point about how you treat people. Right, one of my kind of the drama beat over and over again is like, we're about to see the greatest wealth transfer in history from the boomer generation to millennial and Gen Z.        

00:09:30
            

And if you've not cultivated a relationship with these folks who right now, yes, they only have the capacity for a $15 a month gift or a $5.01 time gift, but in 20 years, they're going to find themselves perhaps flush with millions of dollars of cash. And if you're waiting till they have the money to build a relationship, you're too late. And so if you start not only. To build the relationship, but also, I'm a, I'm a younger millennial, I'm a nineties kid. And so we, we also expect something different.        

00:10:05
            

Absolutely. From organizations than our parents did. So as that transfer of wealth is happening and this is kind of getting into, what I see as, like, kind of a threat to our industry is, especially for older organizations who have the systems, have the procedures and are just running, we could be caught flat footed. Absolutely. If we're still, all of our processes and all of our strategies are focused on a donor generation that no longer has the wealth.        

00:10:37
            

Right. Yeah. If the strategy is, hey, we're just going to keep sending our monthly direct mail appeal and you do nothing with texting them. Right. That's one of those flat foot scenarios.        

00:10:49
            

I mean, we see that all the time where it's like, yeah, we know we should do texting at some point. And it's like, yeah, at some point. It was five years ago. Like, we might be there today. So, yeah, and I also hear from friends in the industry and people all the time, well, we don't leave voicemails.        

00:11:06
            

If, if I just have a missed call from a random number. I'm not calling you back. Absolutely not. But if you leave a voicemail and say, hey, this is Dane from medical teams, and I'm just calling to say thank you so much for your gift. I'm here if you have any questions.        

00:11:20
            

That's the kind of message that a millennial and a Gen Z donor will respond to, because we're not going to pick up the phone. No. And so it's still an important thing to do because it shows that you're taking the extra step, but it's adapting in those little ways to say, hey, we're here and we're listening to you and what your needs are. I also think that younger donors are less transactional than older donors. They want to be a part of something bigger than themselves.        

00:11:55
            

So you have to tell the story without confining it. Your gift did. This is still true, but we need a larger story. We need to say, your gift and all of these other people together did this together. We're in a movement, and I think there are a lot of places that, especially our section of the industry, the christian nonprofit.        

00:12:22
            

We have so much to learn from political fundraising. Like, if you watch how the Democratic Party specifically has been messaging to their donors over the last month, we have so much we can learn from how they're talking about, we are in this together. This is a movement, and we need you at the table. We want to be invested in the organizations that we're supporting more than just financially. We want to be able to share content.        

00:12:52
            

We want to be able to volunteer. We want to be able to dig deeper and meet other people that are doing it in ways that older generations also did, but at a lower scale. Well, hey there. Holy donuts. Listeners, ever feel like your nonprofit's donor experience is like a jelly filled donut with no jelly?        

00:13:10
            

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00:13:21
            

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00:13:58
            

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00:14:08
            

there's a guy I follow on LinkedIn who's a fundraiser for, I think it's summit ministries. It's John. I forget his last name. I'm totally with John right now, but he literally posted, sorry, John, if you watch this. Yeah, shout out to John.        

00:14:21
            

I'll shout you out on LinkedIn with, like, when I search your last name, but I forget what it is. We've met at a conference sometime, but he had this awesome post where he talked specifically about the largest cash gift their ministry has ever gotten. And it was a multi generational approach. Like, it was a parents and the kids, and the kids specifically. I guess I think from the context, they were kind of millennial age.        

00:14:41
            

The difference was the parents wanted to know more about, like, the finances of the ministry, the cause, the mission. The kids wanted to visit the ministry, like in person. Like they want boots on the ground to see the people impacted by it. They want to touch and feel it and really say, hey, what's the culture about here? Like, what's, what's the corporate culture, right.        

00:14:59
            

Of this nonprofit, before we give the you this huge gift ended up, that went through like a million dollar and a half million and a half dollar gift. So it was huge gift. Awesome, praise God. But that just illustrates the difference, right? Like younger generation, not nearly as transactional with the giving, and they want to be part of it.        

00:15:16
            

That's so good, Mandy. And we're more skeptical. Say more about that. Yeah, I think because we were raised with the Internet and being advertised to every moment of our lives for as long as we can remember. I mean, I got a Facebook account in 2007, so definitely since then I've been advertised to for hours every day.        

00:15:43
            

Yeah. So advertising and those quick hit messages fall on deaf ears with our generation a lot more than they do the older generation. So you have to be able to cut through with a larger message. Then this person is hungry and we need money now. We need a bigger story.        

00:16:03
            

Yeah. We need, we need to trust that our money is obviously going to help that child in poverty. But we're also better educated about how the interconnectivity of global issues. And so we need to also know that you're not just doing handouts, you're doing handouts. You're empowering the local population.        

00:16:24
            

If the problems of climate change that are going to keep worsening refugee crises around the world. If you're not focused on that, our generation is going to walk away because we understand that everything is connected, every issue is connected to another issue. And if you're not addressing that, we're going to go find somebody who is. Yeah, I always think, for me personally, one of the things I look for if we're giving to a ministry is I always think, like, especially if it's a humanitarian thing, I always want to know, like, is do you even have a, even if I know it's pie in the sky and probably never happened, do you have a roadmap to a solution here? Like, is there actually, because, like.        

00:17:05
            

Or are we just going to feed the system of aid handouts forever? Right. Like, for this community? Like, is there a really sustainable growth model here that gets it to self sufficiency where, hey, the best thing that could happen is they don't need us anymore. And so I am always looking at that, like, do you even have an ideal endpoint for this ministry that, I mean, hopefully in the 20 years we don't need you anymore or we only need you in a different area.        

00:17:30
            

Like if you went out of business, that would actually be a good thing for the world. And so a hundred percent always looking for that. And it seems like it's pretty uncommon to find that. Yeah. I mean, our role as fundraisers.        

00:17:44
            

Yeah. Is to hopefully not have a job by the time we die. Right. That's not going to happen. Of course not.        

00:17:51
            

Right. But that should be the goal of that. By the time we're done with this thing, there's no need for us anymore. That's great, man. Okay.        

00:18:02
            

We could talk. I think we probably go for 2 hours. So I'm going to try to respect your time, though, because we only have a certain amount of time. Okay. Let's pivot a little bit.        

00:18:10
            

We've kind of hit on some of these already, but macro level and then also kind of. Yeah, go wherever you want this, but mostly macro level. What's a trend that you're seeing that's got you a little bit concerned and one that's got you a little bit more hopeful for kind of the faith ministry, nonprofit space? Yeah. I think what's got me concerned is especially with larger and older nonprofits, I have friends that are consulting with big ones right now.        

00:18:38
            

I'm not going to name drop because now I'm going to tell negative about them, but they're trying to hold on to tactics that are working for a donor base that's dying out. And christian nonprofit, especially here in the states, has been such a good movement, and we've done a lot of good in the world in the last 50 years through organizations like compassion and World vision and medical teams and international justice mission and these big organizations that are doing really good work. But part of the harm of those, when you get so big, it's really hard to turn a big ship. Yeah, but they, but we need to turn, and we need to turn faster because the world's problems are growing. And my concern is that our language and our marketing tactics won't change to the new generation.        

00:19:39
            

They'll go somewhere else and there will be big, big hard consequences to that, to people suffering around the world. And so that's kind of my big concern, is that the child sponsorship model of the nineties is all the things we were just talking about, about the interconnectivity, and we want to make sure that we're doing hand ups and not just handouts and all of those things. That model doesn't work in that world. And so how do we still make sure that all those children who were under that child sponsorship model from the nineties and two thousands don't fall through the cracks now that the donor doesn't resonate with that anymore? Yeah, absolutely.        

00:20:25
            

And the programs, that the programs team on the ground are saying this isn't the best way to do aid anymore. So it's kind of a both. And on that, the thing that makes me really excited there, this has kind of been happening slowly, been building maybe over the last ten years, is we talk about overhead better than we used to.        

00:20:50
            

Overhead was such a bad word in fundraising for so long. Everybody was always asking the question, what youre a overhead percentage? What's your overhead percentage? But that question misses so much context because it's more expensive to work in an active conflict zone than it is to work in, you know, somewhere in the states, for instance. So it's not apples to apples, and it also costs money to raise money.        

00:21:24
            

And so there's this agency in Australia that I've had several friends connected with. It's some ex world vision folks called integrity, and they're doing some really, really good work around educating around overhead right now. So go check them out on LinkedIn and on their website. But they are really kind of changing that narrative and they're really passionate about it. And that's something that makes me really excited, because if we can educate a donor base to say no, I understand that some of my gift is going to go towards admin, it's going to go towards fundraisers, it's going to go towards finance, it's going to go towards salaries and buildings and gas and food for staff.        

00:22:06
            

We're not only going to be able to do more good in the world, but we're also going to be able to attract better talent from the for profit world if our salaries and our benefits start to be competitive. And so because of that concern about overhead, we've lost a lot of really great talent to the for profit world as people grow in their careers. Totally. And I would argue, just as someone who we do a lot of kind of the fractional staffing side, we see a ton of this, where it's okay if oftentimes agency partners end up actually having far more tenure than internal staff because an agency becomes a central source of knowledge, and we actually outlast multiple hires in the same role. And we're sitting there going, I mean, wouldn't have been better just to pay someone great and treat them really well and pay them 15% more, but now you don't have to go through three hires and pay this other staffing firm to go find a new.        

00:23:01
            

It's like, it would have just been cheaper to find a great person and pay them well, like, so much more money doing it that way, if you. Have good donors who understand that. Yeah, great. Yep. Absolutely.        

00:23:11
            

But you gotta have that, right. Super, super helpful insights on that. Dane, one of the things that. On your point of concern. So I come from background church world, and this is a similar crisis.        

00:23:23
            

What we've seen in churches in the United States, which is a lot of the big behemoths of the past have started dying. Right. You think of any number of denominations as, like, indicative of this. But what we've seen has been really interesting, is, like, this flourishing new amount of church plants. And what I kind of came to realize, like, there's just a life cycle of an organization that they.        

00:23:43
            

They get big, they get stuck in the mud, that mud turns to cement. They can't move, they can't pivot, and then they turn to dinosaurs and calcify, and that stinks. And it's awful to see. But this is where the faith element, right? Like, I think God and his kind of, like, grace to all of us and being good to the world, right, and wanting to see it flourished, does this really cool thing where that kind of death creates new growth in lots of other organizations that then are able to flourish and do new things and train up.        

00:24:11
            

So, like, I don't want to see any organ of the behemoth organizations die. I think there will be collateral damage with that. But I also have really strong confidence. I'm seeing a lot of cool new startups, like startup nonprofits, who are willing to take risks and try new things. And what I know about corporations or churches or any ministry is if you don't adapt, you'll die, but someone will take your place.        

00:24:32
            

Like that need will get served and those people will be served. It's just going to be a different organization that gets the blessing of being able to be on the front lines of that to make that world change happen. And so, yeah, I think that's an. Interesting point because we talk a lot about how good industry disruptors are in the tech world specifically, but they're also really good in our world. Absolutely.        

00:24:58
            

They keep people on their toes. They're bringing new ideas. Before medical teams, I was at one of those disruptor organizations. And so, and there was a lot of energy in that, a lot of people signing on board, a lot of influencers, a lot of stage invites, a lot of conference invites. And even though, and the hope of those is when you're in them, like I was, the hope is that you're not only doing good work yourself, but you're also changing the conversation for people in the room that you're talking to.        

00:25:35
            

Absolutely. And so just because, so we would have meetings with some of the behemoths, you know, and say, well, how are you thinking about this? How are you talking to your donors? How are you creating new media and meeting people where they're at? And so disruption in any industry is good, and that's even true in ours.        

00:25:54
            

Yeah. In all fairness, one charity, water existing. Right. Coming into existence changed the way nonprofits think about how you treat monthly recurring, giving more than 10,000 hours of paid consulting everyone. Hundred percent.        

00:26:11
            

Right. Because everyone says, oh, that's how you do it. They get a vision for it because they can see it. And they say, oh, we're so far from the mark, like, we need to change or we're going to die. And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of that.        

00:26:21
            

I think you're right, that disruption is helpful. I'm excited to see new organizations pop up that challenge the status quo and for some of these behemoths, hopefully a few of them, to actually change. And if they don't, confidence that others will rise up to take up their place and serve those needs. Okay, I'm going to try a lightning round the last two here. Really quick resources blogs, podcasts.        

00:26:42
            

What do you like to recommend to people in this space? Fundraisers who are interested in donor engagement. Yeah, that is a great question. I am always trying to be ahead of the curve, and so, so much of what I've learned and what I've implemented doesn't come from our space. It comes from the for profit space, because they just have more resources to innovate.        

00:27:10
            

So I've got two books. One of them's a little older. Power of moments. Okay. Love it.        

00:27:18
            

Chip Heath. Dane Barnett. I take every team I've ever led through this book.        

00:27:25
            

The kind of underlying philosophy of this book is that it doesn't take a lot of money to make a memorable experience for someone. And so this is really great for anyone who's doing really anything, even if you're not a fundraiser and you somehow found yourself here, read this book. But definitely for people in our space. Definitely for people in donor relations and events. Then the other one is, this is a newer one.        

00:27:56
            

Unreasonable hospitality, will guadara. This has kind of been all over the spaces I've been paying attention to the last year. But the subtitle is the remarkable power of giving people more than they expect. And for so much of our industry, we tend to give the bare minimum. And rather than looking for those opportunities to go above and beyond.        

00:28:19
            

And it just takes, and I think a lot of us get worried because we're like, well, I don't have any money or any staff. That's the beauty of both of these books, is they're not. None of the answers are spend more money. It's reallocate the money you have or be creative and find free, more intentional ways to engage. Okay, we will link to those in the show notes.        

00:28:44
            

And then last question. How can people connect with you? Is it where you at on the socials? Yeah. What's the best way to get in touch with you and say, hey, you got some interesting stuff to say.        

00:28:53
            

I want to talk more. Yeah, LinkedIn is definitely the best for me. You can put the link to my LinkedIn there. My personal email is Dane Barnett, 92 at gmail and my work email is dbarneticalteams.org dot. Awesome.        

00:29:10
            

Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. Guys, go talk to Dane. He's awesome. Thank you for being on the show today, man.        

00:29:17
            

Really enjoyed the conversation. Every now and then I'm like, we should have repeat guests. I think you're going to be in that category if you're open to it. Thanks for joining me. I appreciate that.        

00:29:23
            

Thanks, Matt. I appreciate it.        

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