00:00:04
            

Well, hey there, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Holy Donuts podcast brought to you by our friends at we give. If you are looking for the world's best donor experience, donor portals, checkouts, engagement features, go check out we give.com dot. They are the sponsors of this episode and we are so grateful for them. Another person I'm grateful for is my new friend, Christophertopher McGown.        

00:00:24
            

Christopher, how are you doing, man? I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for having me here today. Yeah, absolutely, man. Christopher, joining us from I'm always going to butcher it.        

00:00:32
            

I know some people like the, I say Louisville, but then I've been told by so many people, Nas, Louville, I don't even know. So thanks for joining. Yeah, you tell us. All you gotta do is imagine your mouth full of marbles. Louisville.        

00:00:46
            

And if you pronounce all the syllables, you're doing it wrong. Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us from Louisville. It's great to have you on today. Christopher is the founder and the principal at peak 98 60.        

00:01:03
            

And does plan giving help ministries really think through how they can talk to their donor base and work their donor base on that kind of plan giving. Which, as I kind of admitted, I'm deep in the ignorance pool on this. Christopher, I'm excited to learn from you today along with our audience. So thanks for joining us. Why don't we start here?        

00:01:22
            

Give the folks in our audience a little bit of an understanding of who you are, kind of how you got your start working with nonprofits. Sure. Happy to. So I think, like everybody I've ever met in the space, I happened into fundraising, right? I don't know anybody who said I want to.        

00:01:36
            

When I grow up, I want to be a fundraiser. I graduated college with my degree in education, and a friend of mine said, hey, I'm starting an after school program. Will you come run it during the summer? Great. I went up there my second week there, I just got everything set away.        

00:01:51
            

She goes, by the way, I've got your salary for the first month. After that, you're going to need to go raise the funds for that. Well, that would have been good to know. And so I started raising money. I found out I'm actually really, really good at it.        

00:02:05
            

It matches my gifting, my personality. And so I moved into this fundraising space and I actually left behind the program side of it pretty quickly. And while I was there working, I met a gentleman who came in to do plan giving. So at that time, the process was the local office would make all the appointments and go and tell the local story. And then the hired gun would come in and do the plan giving.        

00:02:30
            

Nuts and bolts, right? And I enjoyed what he was doing. He liked what I was doing. He said, listen, I'm moving, expanding my staff. Do you want to come with me?        

00:02:39
            

And so I did. And I went and I learned plan giving, the ins and outs of plan giving. And I will say I drank the kool aid of magic and the mystery of plan giving only to find out that it's all smoke and mirrors. And 92% of the time, plan giving is extraordinarily simple. I tell people I can train anybody, any professional fundraiser.        

00:03:02
            

I can train plan 98, 92% of plan giving in an hour and a half. Wow. It's the other 8% that's the challenge that everybody talks about. And I say, all you have to know is what to do when a donor asks you something from that 8%, who's your backup plan? Right?        

00:03:18
            

And if you have that, go do plain giving all day long. Because it really is very, very simple. Once you cut through the smoke and mirrors of the four tier distribution of a charitable man or unitrust, oh, golly, I love it. So let's, let's go there then, man. I mean, I always like to ask our guests about strategies, tips, tricks, tactics like that they use.        

00:03:39
            

But I mean, when you say, when someone tells me, hey, I can teach you 92% of what you need to know, about an hour and a half, well, I mean, I've got 15 minutes. Teach me 20%, I can. So what I'll tell you is that the vast majority of plan giving donors don't want plan giving information from the charity. What they want is the details they need for somebody who is giving them plain giving information. Gotcha.        

00:04:04
            

Right. So what they need to know is, one, your charity will accept the planned gift to confidence in what that plan gift will happen when, what will happen with that playing gift when it comes to you? And three, the information that they need for their legal documents. That's it. And so that's all internal.        

00:04:23
            

The rest of it is promoting that you can't take it and working into your everyday life. So if you as an organization, and we may talk about this later, I'm not sure, but if you as an organization agree on what your policies are, on how you are going to deal with plan gifts, so that you can talk to your donors with integrity about what's going to happen when they remember, by the time you get the gift, 9%, they're dead. And so they can't defend it. They can't say, well, that is what I meant. So if you have a policy in place that says, if you say x, we're going to do x, and that's always the case, and you can go promote that.        

00:05:01
            

That's what donors are interested in. They want to know that you're going to act with integrity when they're not there. They're all, to be clear, they already trust you, otherwise they would never have reached out in the first place. So if they're putting in their will, which is the most common gift type, 87% of all planned gifts are gifts by will. Right.        

00:05:22
            

If they're doing that, they're putting in the very same document with their spouse, their children, their grandchildren. That's a really high elevation. So the average donor in their lifetime supports twelve charities throughout the year. Okay, so I write check, twelve different charities throughout a year. And who that twelve is will vary from year to year.        

00:05:39
            

Right. The average plan gets if they put a charity in their estate plan. The average estate plan only includes four. Wow. Right.        

00:05:47
            

So you've already narrowed down from minimum of twelve, probably 24 throughout their lifetime, or 36 this four. So you're one of the four. So they already trust you. All you want to do is validate that trust by having integrity in your plan. So we're actually going to do a webinar in a few weeks about creating a gift exempt policy with integrity.        

00:06:11
            

So if you want to learn more about that, we're happy to do that. That's something we do training wise, and. We will drop that in the show notes for sure. As people watch it to go watch that, or if they're watching after the webinar, they can go back and watch a recording of it. Talk to me a little bit about, because I come from the communications and marketing side.        

00:06:30
            

A lot of our audiences too. Some are donor development. So it's kind of a good mix. Talk to me about what you wish. The marketing communication side of development knew about plan giving and how maybe they can.        

00:06:42
            

You said most of it is having the documents they need. How do we better communicate about this? Because I think there's a lot that may be thinking, oh, yeah, plan giving is just another one of our things we need to promote and. But like, why give us some of the why plan giving should be top. Of our real estate.        

00:06:57
            

So I'll start with the why. Then I'll start with the how. Cause they're both important and easy. The why is if a donor makes a plan gift, when a donor makes a plan gift, they are at nearly 100% donor retention. It is extraordinarily rare that once a donor makes a gift, they stop giving gifts annually.        

00:07:17
            

Yep. Right. So most of us are at our best donors, right. Or at 70% retention. Newly acquired donors, closer to 40% retention.        

00:07:26
            

You have a plan giving donor, and once they've made that commitment, they're near 100%. And there's lots of thought process behind it. I don't honestly know why that is so high. My guess is they've made this emotional commitment. They want to make sure you're there whenever they aren't.        

00:07:43
            

Right. So that's number one. And by the way, they also tend to increase their giving throughout their lifetime, unlike the average donor who reaches a point and then caps and stays at that point. Right. So that's plan giving.        

00:07:57
            

Donors not only don't negate annual giving, which you hear all the time, I'm afraid to talk about wills because then they'll stop giving to me annually. Right. That's entirely wrong. In fact, it's the exact opposite. Not only they're going to give to you annually, they're going to give to you more often, more frequently and in larger amounts than they have in the past.        

00:08:15
            

So that's the why it's important, or one of the reasons why it's important. The how you talk about marketing folks. So marketing folks are my very best friends. So what I tell anybody getting started in plan giving is do not, do not, do not spend money on plan giving material. Don't go.        

00:08:33
            

There are great vendors out there who offer amazing products, and I'm not going to name drop, but know that they're out there. Right. We're not one of them. Right. But we partner with some of them.        

00:08:42
            

But you don't need it. What you need is to work plan giving into what you're already doing. So if you're already sending out a great thank you letter, add a line in there that simply says, have you considered leaving a gift to XYZ charity through your will marketing standpoint? Never use internal language. Plan giving, legacy giving, charitable gift planning, whatever you're going to call it, your organization is internal language.        

00:09:09
            

What we always talk about is gifts by will. That's the number one tool people use. Everyone understands what a will is, or at least thinks they do. Everyone needs one, regardless of whether they have two cent or 2 billion cents. They need a will.        

00:09:22
            

So we start there. It allows us to move the conversation forward. So if we talk about gifts by will uniformly, it's easier on the marketing folks, and it's easier to work it in your language. You can do it anywhere. It's a box on your newsletter.        

00:09:37
            

It is a working it into a story. If you have a donor who made a gift, working it into a story about the donor. If you have a gift that came in ultimately, how did that gift get used? What you're already doing, what you're already talking about, just add it every once in a while. Don't do a social media post just on plan giving initially.        

00:09:58
            

Work it into the language you're already using. Right. You have your ways which you can support your organization, your monthly gift, your immediate gift, your gift of appreciated securities, and a gift through your will. Right. Working in what you're already doing so that you're not spending money on things that you're not ready to do deal with yet.        

00:10:16
            

Let's get the word out there. Depends on the study. You see, our study says 20%. Russell James has a study out of Australia that says 70%. So it's in there somewhere of the time.        

00:10:32
            

When you get a gift by will you had no knowledge of, they're not on your donor file, they have no record of, they've never volunteered with you. So it's entirely new gift. So we always say, don't try to isolate your donors. Don't try to figure out what donors gonna respond. Talk to everybody and then have a plan for how you're gonna respond.        

00:10:53
            

For those who raise their hands and assume that the vast majority of people are never gonna raise their hand. Right. Cause you've given them what they need, the gift's gonna come through. Great, you win. Don't worry about whether or not they raise your, oh, well, we didn't.        

00:11:08
            

You know, only five people responded to this mailing. Who cares? 25 got what they needed and went and talked to their attorney. That's awesome. I love it.        

00:11:16
            

I love it. Okay, so let's go. We just went really kind of micro on plan giving, which is great. That was the goal. Right?        

00:11:23
            

Let's go super tactical. Let's go macro level on what you're seeing for ministries and nonprofits. What's got you excited, and what's one that's got you a little bit nervous? So let me give you an answer that fits both of those. Okay?        

00:11:36
            

I love it. Donor advised funds. Okay. So donor advised funds are very exciting. They are opening up opportunities that we've never had before.        

00:11:45
            

So we're seeing donors use them both in their annual giving and major giving, as well as in their planned giving. We're seeing donors try to function like a pseudo family foundation. We're seeing donors help teach philanthropy to their children and grandchildren through these tools. So it's really, really exciting what's there. It's also really, really concerning because one, the nonprofit community has not embraced donor advised funds.        

00:12:15
            

There's a couple of reasons. One is, one of the reasons donors love it is anonymity. Nonprofits hate anonymity. People like me who lived with a goal their whole career, I do all this work and you make a gift through the Sunshine Joy don't advise fund. And I can't connect it back.        

00:12:35
            

I don't get production credit for it. So the nonprofit world is going to have to really change how they're doing, how they market, how they manage people and staff. But that's a whole different conversation. The other thing that's a little bit concerning is really the IR's is taking a look at donor advised funds and they've got some proposed changes that will really put a chilling effect on some of the things that donors are doing to deal with the 1%, less than 1% who are abusing it. They're going to hurt the 95 99% who are really doing it extremely well.        

00:13:14
            

So I would say to you it's both exciting because donors, once they understand it, really embrace it, and it opens a world of opportunities for us as nonprofits. But it's really concerning because it isn't our model. We're having to learn a new system and, you know, we don't change very well. No, sometimes it takes a little while. Sometimes it takes a little while.        

00:13:36
            

Soccer. Well, hey there, holy donuts. Listeners, ever feel like your nonprofit's donor experience is like a jelly filled donut with no jelly. Well, don't fret. We found the jelly.        

00:13:46
            

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00:14:03
            

And with we give, you get an incredible donor portal, events, pledges, surveys, segmentation on and on. We could go on the features and those checkouts, though, smoother than my attempt to make homemade donuts, which, let's just say, didn't quite rise to the occasion. See what I did there? With WeGive's innovative engagement tools, your donors won't just feel the love, they'll be coming back for second, because nothing says thanks for your dough better than a world class experience. So if you want to sprinkle some extra special magic on your donor relationships.        

00:14:37
            

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00:14:42
            

okay, so you've been in the industry a while. I'm not gonna say how many years, but a few years. A few years. And so what, like, what articles, what resources? What blogs, podcasts?        

00:14:55
            

What do you love to recommend for people to learn about plan giving? Feel free to just completely give free publicity to any resources. What are some of the resources you recommend to folks? So there's a couple of things. Well, of course.        

00:15:10
            

Holy donuts, right? It's a great podcast. Definitely learn all about it. For those who are in the same walk that we're in, there's a book called the Spirituality of fundraising by Henry Nguyen. It's been forever to go.        

00:15:27
            

There's actually a workbook version of it. So if you haven't gone through that, that's an amazing resource. Mark Pitman, who's a fabulous guy, wrote a book called Ask without Fear. It's a phenomenal one for people who are in a major giving sector or communicating with major donors. There's a book that's been around for, I don't know, probably 30 years, maybe even longer, called the millionaire next door.        

00:15:52
            

It's certainly not a Christophertian base. It's a mainstream based, and that's a great one to help you understand the psychology of who our most likely donors are. So those are three books I'd recommend. As far as general information, I don't always agree with Claire Axelrod, but she shares a lot of amazing information and tips from a plan giving standpoint. Tony Maggione offers phenomenal resources and I would encourage anybody who wants to do plan giving on their own.        

00:16:24
            

He's a great resource to get because our clientele are people who were doing it for them. So we've gone from telling to doing. And so for those, if you want to go learn how to do it, well, happy to help you do that. But he's a really great resource. Been doing it for a really long time.        

00:16:40
            

So, so helpful, Christopher, really appreciate those resources. We'll link to all those in the show notes, LinkedIn profiles. For those folks that have got websites, we'll have our team find them and put them on there. If people do want to connect with you, if they want to connect with your company, if they want to learn more about what you all do, what's the best way to reach out to you? What's the best way to get in contact with you?        

00:16:58
            

Always the website is just, it's peak 98 six. So peak nine number 9860.com. Peak 9860 on LinkedIn, Christophertopher McGown is because the last name is spelled m c g o w n, no a n or e in there. It's unique. It's easy to find me on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to connect.        

00:17:18
            

And for those who still use twitter, I'm on Twitter as well. Yeah, I love sharing information about plan giving because I want to get people excited about it. If we get people excited about it, they're going to understand its value. And what my goal is to pull back the curtain and say, it's not scary. It isn't scary.        

00:17:38
            

98, 92% of the time, it's super duper easy. And all you need is a lifeline for the other 8%. Right. Your board member will be happy to do that. But normally on your board, you've got someone who can serve as that lifeline.        

00:17:51
            

So don't be hate, don't be afraid. Step out and go do it. And start talking to your donors about what, to be clear, somebody else is already talking to them about. Absolutely. You know, especially if they're college graduates, the colleges have very robust plan giving programs.        

00:18:06
            

And if, if the University of Maine, where my son is going, is talking to them, I want darn sure my nonprofits talking to them, too, so they know Maine isn't the only one they can give to. Absolutely. Christophertopher McGown, thank you so much for taking the time, brother. This is a lot of fun. Look forward to having you back at some point in the future.        

00:18:24
            

And until then, enjoy it up there in Louisville. Thank you so much. Did great job on that mattress.        

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