• Herding Tigers by Todd Henry - a leadership book focused on leading creative teams and encouraging innovation.
• Unto - Learn more about the humanitarian aid ministry of Cru and their work in over 40 countries by visiting unto.com. Follow their impactful stories on Instagram at unto people.
• WeGive - A software tool for nonprofits to enhance donor experiences, manage events, pledges, surveys, and more. Check out wegive.com for more information and to improve your donor relationships.
• NIO Summit - A gathering for nonprofit professionals to unite, learn, and grow together. Stay updated on their upcoming events and conferences for networking and collaboration opportunities.
• Impact Update - A podcast by We Are For Good, focusing on uniting people who are trying to do good in the world. Listen to their episodes for insights on collaboration and making a positive impact.

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Transcription

00:00:04
            

Well, hey there, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Holy Donuts podcast. I am joined today by Kaitlynn Watkins. Kaitlynn, this episode is like a year in the making, right? Like, we met a year ago almost, and I said, oh, yeah, we should have you on the show sometime, and it's just now happening.        

00:00:19
            

So thanks so much for making the time to hop on and join me today. Of course, no problem. Yeah. So just to give everyone a little bit of background, I'll have you tell a little bit more your story. But you are the vp of development at Untu, which is the humanitarian aid ministry of Crew, which everyone's gonna know.        

00:00:34
            

Crew, huge ministry, and obviously tons of brands within crew. You head up development for the Unto ministry. So give us a little bit of background, tell us a little bit about Untu, and then give us a little bit of your story of how you got involved with Crew and got to where you are today working with Untu. Yeah, so I actually just recently made the switch over to Unto, but I've been working for crew for, like, seven and a half years now, so just switched into this role. But I've worked kind of alongside Untu for a number of years, even while I was just with crew.        

00:01:06
            

But Untu is in a really unique space. We have, you know, crew has missionaries in over 190 countries around the world. But in some of the toughest places, we have trouble getting access to different people groups. And really, our way to access people with the gospel is through humanitarian aid. And that's where NTU comes into the picture.        

00:01:25
            

It's not really about putting us at the forefront, but really, it's equipping our local, on the ground national staff with humanitarian aid. So that way they can have established access and credibility, too, within people groups to actually have a greater reach of their ministry into some of the most remote. So the toughest locations, it's not places that you're gonna have on your vacation bucket list, but it's places that are unreached for the gospel. And so that's really. It's humanitarian aid is showing the kindness of Jesus to people in some of those places.        

00:01:59
            

So, yeah, that's a little bit about Untu and work we're doing. Very cool. And so how many countries are you all working in? Like, I know it's crisis, sometimes a relief. It's a little bit of everything.        

00:02:10
            

And so that's not always predictable. But on average year, how many countries are you all working? Yeah, it varies a little bit, but I would say, like, Untu's footprints probably in around 40 of those countries, so working in some of those places, yeah. Very cool. Very cool.        

00:02:23
            

And then how'd you get there? How'd you get to crew? Have you. Were you like, hey, I've been with Cruz since I got undergrad. What's kind of your story to kind of get into this donor development role?        

00:02:34
            

Yeah, I joke with people. I was like, I don't know if I necessarily, like, as a kid, dreamed of being in development. Like, I wasn't keeping the offering envelope at church and being like, I just want to go into raising funds. But, yeah, I graduated with a degree in public relations and a minor in nonprofit management, so I was, like, not really sure about what I wanted to do with it. But when I was in college, one summer, I had an internship.        

00:02:59
            

I knew one of the local directors of the American Cancer society, so I had an internship with them, started helping with relay for life events, and then right out before I graduated college, I was so excited because I landed my first full time job working as a community rep for the American Cancer Society. So I did that for a number of years, and then kind of more like grassroots community fundraising events type thing. And then I went to work for a children's hospital after that, doing annual giving some major donor things, and then came to Cru. Very cool. Very cool.        

00:03:33
            

Okay, so you've got a pretty big, like, you know, like, cv of nonprofit work. So I'm excited to hear what you have to say about this. What is, like, if you're talking getting coffee with someone else who's in development, whether it's digital, whether it's kind of traditional male stuff, what would be your best gold nugget of strategy or your value bomb to them about, hey, when you're working on your campaigns, here's the one thing you need to consider, or maybe it's a little hack that you've come across or a strategy that you just love when it comes to helping fundraise and helping increase the impact of the organization. Yeah. So I'd say one of the things.        

00:04:13
            

I kind of take that question as, what's one of the things I'm always excited to talk about when it comes to development? And I think, so one of the spaces that, when I first came to Korea, I was working in new donor acquisition, and my job was originally, like, new donor acquisition through direct mail, and I found that as, like, I mean, it was. It was great we were bringing in donors, but it felt really limiting, and it also felt like, are we going to be. Are we going to be doing this? In 25 years or something like that.        

00:04:41
            

And really, I wanted to expand out of that. And the big question that I was asking that, honestly, probably if you asked every development director that you've come in contact with was like, how do we get younger donors? Because we're getting tons of donors, but their first gift to the organization through direct mail is like 70 years old. And that's great, but it's like talking about, how do we engage the next generation, even if they're giving small amounts now? And so we did a lot of testing in this area, and I just kind of started off by saying, like, can I try this in my space, even though it's not my exact job, and I'll talk more about that later, but that's exciting.        

00:05:15
            

And so one of the things we started doing was testing in podcasts, which is great conversation now for what we're doing, but testing in podcast ads, which at the time, that was probably like five years ago now, really, there weren't a ton of nonprofits that were doing podcast ads, making requests for donations. So that was a hard thing that we didn't have a ton of research to go off of. But I kind of talk about with my peers and stuff, like, you have to set aside a portion of your budget for research and development, which is hard for so many of our nonprofits, too. When you're, you know, you've got a shoestring budget, you've got a small team, you gotta bring in results. But, like, if you don't do research and development on, especially the next generation that's coming and how you're gonna engage with them, you're gonna be in a pickle.        

00:06:02
            

Like, you're not building sustainability in your ministry. So it's hard, and I think it takes a lot of work with your leadership teams to paint the vision of, that's what I talk about all the time with our leadership team is two things, scalability and sustainability. And you've got to be building both in your development program. So that was part of my sustainability is you've got to be engaging this next generation of donors. And so we did that through podcast ads.        

00:06:25
            

And it was, I mean, it's expensive to do podcast ads, but it was trying to figure out, like, our team figured out this kind of ratio of our spend versus the break even point. And asking for monthly gifts, too, was a great low entry, engaging, you know, people that are in their late thirties, early forties, too, of making a monthly gift. And, like, we've had a lot of success with that because it engages, you know, through direct mail, you get a first gift and 70% of them don't actually make a second gift to the organization. So when we are asking for a monthly gift, it's actually helping us build better sustainability too, for the ministry. So I love that.        

00:07:03
            

So one comment and then a whole bunch of questions. I love podcast because also all the data shows that podcast listeners are generally very well educated and also which is going to lead to higher income levels, which means more propensity for giving. So genius on that level to be going in hidden podcasts. Well, hey there. Holy donuts.        

00:07:26
            

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00:07:36
            

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00:08:07
            

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00:08:30
            

so talk us through. Like you say, it's expensive. Like, you want to sponsor a podcast, do an ad. Like, what are we talking? We talking $5,000?        

00:08:40
            

We're talking $50,000. Like, how much should someone budget for even just a little test on something like that? Yeah, I'm gonna give, like the worst answer. It depends. But, like, it's, but really, like, the hard part was, is like when we came up with kind of our formula for how much our spin was versus how much we were asking for in the monthly gift and how many monthly donors we would need to come out of that to reach our break even.        

00:09:03
            

Like we were trying to break even on these donors, like around 18 months or something to break even. And so trying to figure out that formula, what the cost, and that's the main thing I would encourage, if you know, you're considering that is, go into it with a goal. Don't just make us spend, because, I mean, there were some that we. The bigger the reach of the podcast, the better your results are usually coming out of it. So it's one of those areas that's tricky.        

00:09:28
            

And I talked about that with the smaller teams. It's like, it's hard to test into, because you test a small nonprofit that's gonna. Or a small podcast that's only gonna charge you $5,000 for an ad, you really don't have the reach. And so you may get it. It's not a big of a data point, whereas, I mean, we're testing with a country music star's wife has a podcast, and so that's costing, like north of $20,000.        

00:09:51
            

But we are getting hundreds of monthly donors coming in. So it gives us much more of a data point. But it's a bigger risk and spend type thing. But we saw a great benefit from it. Very cool.        

00:10:01
            

And so it depends wildly on the size of the audience. The bigger you go, the bigger the reach. Right. So the better the results. And then just talk us through, like, how do you even reach out to that person?        

00:10:13
            

Are you working through a broker for that deal, or are you just going direct and say, hey, we'll have your podcast. Let's talk to your producer. Can we sponsor this? How do you logistically get that set up? Yeah, it's different for each podcast.        

00:10:24
            

I think over the years since we started this program, probably like five years ago, podcasts have gotten much more sophisticated in their advertising streams. So it used to be literally going onto the podcast website and looking at their contact us page and sending them emails. But now a lot more have kind of like conglomerated ad companies that they're working with that will work directly with them. So it depends on, again, how big the podcasts are. A lot of times they have kind of a one central spot for.        

00:10:51
            

And again, it's sometimes the network they're on. We usually work with the network itself and say, these are the shows. And that's the one word of caution, I would say, in this space, too. Like, I think you can go into the approach of like, hey, we want to buy ad space on your network, and you can show up and we'll target and make sure you reach 25 year old christians, et cetera. But then they're going to scatter it across all the podcasts in their network.        

00:11:17
            

And we did not take that approach. We said, we only want to show up on these shows. And the challenge with that is making sure it's aligned in values with your brand. You may find me listening to one of these podcasts, but if you show up as your christian nonprofit in the space and be like, wait a minute, are you supporting them? And that's the tricky space to navigate with it.        

00:11:35
            

Yeah, totally. No, I love, love, love the idea of one research and development budget, but then also testing things like podcasts. It's just such an awesome audience that's there, and most nonprofits aren't really thinking that way. So thank you so much for dropping that on us. Okay, transition a little bit.        

00:11:50
            

I want to talk macro level now. We kind of went micro campaign level. Can you give us maybe a trend that you're seeing in nonprofit land that's got you a little bit concerned? And then on the flip side, one that's got you really excited for what's next? For most reasons, yeah.        

00:12:04
            

So I would say, like, and I concerned, and at risk of sounding like a geriatric millennial, like, the AI thing is, and I'll caveat this with AI, and it's not that I'm concerned in, like, what AI is doing in our world, but more so, I feel like in my years in nonprofit, it seems like sometimes that we trend like a generation behind in tech. And so it's like, we know that we need to be a part of these things, but we're slower to catch up with the for profit space in tech sometimes. And a lot of, I mean, some of that's for good reason. Like, we want to be good stewards of our dollars and our operation. When new tech comes on the market, it's unknown, untested, it's expensive, and so we have to give it some time.        

00:12:47
            

But I think that's just like, AI is growing so quickly, and to figure out how do we learn and keep up with it at the pace and how do we apply it in a good, constructive way in development, I think. Is that my biggest kind of question for that? Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, AI is one of those things, too, that I am like, as tech nerd as they come. But even I get to the point where I'm like, okay, just wake me up when we get there.        

00:13:12
            

That's kind of my posture is like, I can keep up with every ebb and flow, but I know the second I'm get really excited, oh, this new thing in AI is happening. Three months later, a competitor is going to come out, and it's a whole new landscape. So I'm kind of painting where I'm like, wake me up when we get there, and then we'll assess the situation and figure out where we are. But it is moving so rapidly, it's really, really hard to know, like, what should we actually engage with? What should we not?        

00:13:36
            

This is actually, I tend to agree with you. I think this is actually a place where it is beneficial for nonprofits to be ten years behind because you just kind of let it play out. Not every trend is a good trend, and so let's just let it play out and see where it lands, and then we can, you know, make a good decision once we see where everything lands. So. Love that.        

00:13:56
            

Yeah, I should. Seems like tech is, yeah, it seems like tech, though, is like, with each year, it's like tech's evolving so much faster than it did. It'd be like something, you know, ten years ago, something new comes on the market and they're kind of king for, you know, at least five years or something. And then we innovate off of that. Now it's like you said, it's changing every three months AI of what they can do, and it's harder for us to, like, keep up and figure out, okay, when is it actually something that's gonna stick with us?        

00:14:22
            

Right? When are we gonna get the actual, like, Facebook that we know is gonna be here for a while? When we gonna get the, like, hey, Instagram, we know it's gonna be like, we're yet to see that with AI, chat, GPT, and, you know, OpenAI to an extent, but even that is, who knows? Okay, so what's a trend then, if we're not concerned but just kind of slightly pausing on AI, what's a trend that's got you a lot more excited? Like, I was reading an article yesterday, too, which I've had this, like, growing sense myself.        

00:14:51
            

And I think you always wonder, like, is this just my own personal belief or is this what is actually happening in the sector? And I was talking to you a lot about, like, nonprofit collaboration. And that, to me, is super exciting. I think it feels almost like the weight of, like, all the really macro, deep seated issues that are happening in the world. I think donors are getting really smart and realizing, like, you can't use one sole infrastructure to solve those problems.        

00:15:19
            

And we're doing this so much better in Cru, too, of how we partner with other nonprofits and even in our space and unto of like, working with other humanitarian organizations and even within our own. Like, CRU is like a web of ministries, too, that are coming in, partnering with ourselves. And it's really like showing that collaboration, like, all right, like, donors are so smart and sophisticated. Like, they want to see, like, if you can work with others, you're actually working smarter and there's a bigger infrastructure to have better, actual change come from these deep seated issues, things like poverty and, you know, like all these different issues that are happening in the world, like global hunger crisis and stuff. Like, you cannot solve it as a singular organization and thinking about nonprofit collaboration.        

00:16:00
            

Like, I think that more and more donors are going to want to see this going forward, of how are you actually partnering with those to make a bigger impact? Yeah, no, I sense that, too. That's happening. This is quick. Shout out to my friends John and Becky over at we are for good.        

00:16:15
            

Great podcast. I mean, they just had their big. I think it's impact up. Sorry, John, if I'm butchering this, but I think it was impact update with the whole, like, the whole goal of the movement, right. Is like, how do we unite people who are trying to do good in the world?        

00:16:28
            

Say we're better together and so see that kind of stuff. See things like, I mean, honestly, like where we met last year, I think we're both gonna be there again this year, neo conference. It's gonna be in Indianapolis where people just come together and saying, hey, like, we're better if we're all learning together, if we're all growing together. Instead of seeing each other's competition, let's see each other's collaborators. And so, yeah, I agree.        

00:16:47
            

That's a huge opportunity for ministries. Definitely. Yeah, totally agree. Okay, so you just mentioned you've been doing some reading. I get the sense that you're someone who's a reader, a learner, kind of constant growth sort of person.        

00:17:02
            

So what's a book resource, whether it's a blog, article, magazine, if people still subscribe to those that you are consistently recommending to your team and to other people in this space. Okay. Outside of the Holy Donuts podcast. That's what I was asking. Absolutely.        

00:17:18
            

Yeah, of course. Outside this podcast. Okay. So I feel like I'm gonna kind of cheat and not say it's not necessarily like a development book, but it's actually a leadership book that was super impactful and how I lead my teams, and it's called herding Tigers by Todd Henry. It's super great.        

00:17:37
            

Someone asked me the other day, was like, what do you prefer, leadership development or leadership or fund development? Yeah. And I was like, man, it's a hard question. Like, I do love fundraising, but I like leadership is my number one priority. I think if you have.        

00:17:51
            

If you can lead, well, then fund development goes alongside it. Like, if you can encourage and lead your teams, and it makes it a fun place to work, too. And so this book really challenged me. It's all about, like, how you lead creative people. And I think it's, like, an untapped market in our fund development space, especially in christian nonprofits.        

00:18:11
            

Like, we're not always thinking, like, oh, we need really creative people to be in this space, but I think it's something that we really do need. And I think about, like, I gave that example when I was hired on Tikru originally to bring in new donors through direct mail. And the book is always challenging of, like, how do you lead people? Maintain trust with them so you can actually but encourage them to try new things, not just fulfill their job description. And so I've had tons of leaders and crew that poured into me and gave me that mindset of, like, you give them the guardrails of, like, here's where I'm.        

00:18:43
            

But, like, give them an expanse to work in and actually be creative in their jobs. You're not just a direct mail person, but you're just, how do we get new donors? And so giving that freedom and actually making your development team see that they are creative people, the book was really inspiring to me, and I think it really shaped how I lead my team. Very cool. That is a great recommendation.        

00:19:05
            

I have in the past, hosted another podcast on church creative specifically, and that book was recommended to me by is one of the first episodes I ever did by a guy named Chris Quartz up at Crossroads Church. He's the head of their creative agency there. And he same way everyone's ever told me about that book, loves the book, so I'm yet to read it. So I'll put that on the Amazon list. Now.        

00:19:25
            

I've been guilted to read it. I've heard it's a wonderful book. So highly recommended based on multiple smart people I know. Okay, so folks, want to find out about unto the work you all do. Kaitlynn, where's the best place to check you all out on the online interwebs?        

00:19:40
            

Yeah. So you can go to unto.com or follow us on Instagram at unto people. So, yeah, I'm not in charge of it, but our team does a fantastic job with social media and sharing impact stories from the field. So I really encourage you to follow along. Awesome.        

00:19:55
            

Well, Kaitlynn, thank you so much for taking the time today. I know you're busy. Get back to raising funds. Get back to leading people. It was awesome.        

00:20:01
            

Having you on the show. Thanks so much for having me.        

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