00:00:05 - Matt Lombardi
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the holy donuts podcast. Super excited to be joined today by my friend Brian heard, VP of advancement for the colson center based out of Colorado springs, but he's over there in Dallas. Brian, how you doing today, man?

00:00:18 - Brian Hurd
I'm doing great. I'm excited to be on with you today, Matt.

00:00:21 - Matt Lombardi
Yeah, pump talk with you. I know we got to meet at NeoCom in Dallas a few weeks ago for the first time. Spent quite a bit of time actually chatting and talking about what you're doing at the colson center, your experience in consulting, and you've been part of a ton of different ministries and worked with some really phenomenal teams helping engage donors at a really high level. So give us the I know you're not going to be one to brag on yourself too much, but give us the background. How do you get into this space? How do you start working with ministries and specifically on the fundraising side?

00:00:49 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, absolutely. I've actually been in the space 28 years now. It's hard to believe and also a real blessing. I started as insurance and then got a chance to volunteer at an organization and then actually go on to a team at Dallas seminary in the fundraising. And really, for me, Matt, I just learned that there's a real business side to what we do. I just was so fulfilled by the opportunity to think I could use my skills and gifts in this arena to really make a difference for ministries, which is mostly what I work with. And I've never left since. I've loved it and just continued to build. And I spent three years there working with a great team, and then I've spent probably most about 20 years as an independent consultant, and then I've just recently, a month ago, joined full time with the colson center.

00:01:35 - Matt Lombardi
Yeah. And that's half the fun of one of the things that we hear a lot in the space, right, is folks who get to serve alongside mysteries, whether that's in a contractor consultant role, and then they kind of are able to switch hats for a season and go full time and back and forth. And I think that's one of the cool things, as I saw at neo, and you probably did too. And a lot of the other events that we're at is it really does feel kind of like a small family, those of us who are in kind of working on kingdom minded ministries, who are trying to grow, trying to advance. There aren't a lot of us out there. We're kind of a weird niche, right? But it is like a family, and so connections are fun, for sure. So okay. With that experience, 28 years, I think.

00:02:11 - Brian Hurd
My career has probably been most shaped by just others in the industry that will mentor you, coach you, train, we learn from each other, and I tell people all the time. Fundraising is a team sport. We're in this together. It's an abundance mindset, right? Donors think that way. They appreciate thinking that way. Our causes aren't the only ones they support. So the more we can learn from each other. Even meeting you, you were kind of helping me all these years in just in an area in digital and donor journeys that I don't spend a lot of time with, that you're really gifted in. So that's what it's all about, is just really helping each other, being in this for the greater good, and I think it's what excites a lot of us.

00:02:48 - Matt Lombardi
Yeah, absolutely, man. And I'm excited to hear from you today and learn from you on major gift development. I know it's something that you're super passionate about and then also how you really walk donors through a journey into an organization. So I'm going to ask you kind of one of our stock questions, but let's take it in that direction. Right? Is what is a campaign or strategy that you've worked on in the past that you think is just awesome, that you're like, hey, brag on my team a little bit on this. Whether it's something that Colton Center, whether it's a client that you had that they executed this, and you got to be part of working with the team on what's something you've seen really effective in a really tactical sense, work well for organizations, specifically when it comes to developing major donors or helping build kind of some of those pathways for major donors.

00:03:33 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, I love that. I'll probably answer that in a philosophical question that I've applied to a lot of different organizations, whether you're a million dollars or 100 million. And I've been fortunate to have clients with both. I've probably served over about 100 clients now over these years. And really, for me, this might sound simple, but it works. There's four key areas, and that's leadership, that's messaging, that's infrastructure, and it's your donors. I say ministry partners a lot. So the idea is, if you think about that as kind of four tires or four key metrics, we're all at different places. But if you can really assess what does your leadership look like internally and externally, that's key to understand what you have, kind of that assessment of what you have messaging really comes down to. Do you really know your different audiences? And do you have a collateral tool bag and a way to really articulate your vision, your uniqueness, but personalize that to different audiences? We can kind of highlight the major donor audience here. Infrastructure, to me, is where so many need help in consulting. Just how do you put it all together from communication systems? And really, at the end of the day, it's about execution. I'll work with clients that have lots of ideas, but I'm trying to help them think, what's the next 90 days? What's the next twelve months? I mostly will work on roadmaps for a one year period, maybe 18 months after that. That's just too much. 30,000 foot level, doing the same things over and over and over. And then I think lastly, when you look at your ministry partners, what do you have currently to work with? I believe we start with what we have and we can reach any vision. There's a way to get there, but really kind of around three goals. How do we retain those that we've been given? How do we grow within those that we have? And then what does new look like? And each of those have different goals, but I think that's key. So those four areas to me, whether I'm doing a campaign or a large kind of infrastructure or an organization that wants to get more sophisticated as a fundraising shop, those are kind of my go to to start there and then build that's.

00:05:37 - Matt Lombardi
Awesome. Okay, I want to focus in on number four a little bit. And this is taking us off script because I'm legitimately fascinated by what you're saying. So if we go with number four, right, and we're talking about ministry partners and we say, yeah, I actually was literally on a call with a nonprofit today, and their exact quote to me was, we feel like right now we don't have capacity to really target anyone except for major donors because we're just too small. Right. They feel like the idea of new donors or reaching out to mid tier or helping grow donors just overwhelming. They're like, we pretty much only have bandwidth to take care of our major donors and try to get more major donors. Can I just ask for free consulting on the spot on the show? Right. That mindset, I think, is for a lot of smaller nonprofits like, hey, we know who gives, let's just focus on them. But my fear is for a lot of them, that puts them in a turtle shell mode where they're just going back to the same well over and over again. How do they break out of that and start to expand that and grow on that fourth part? Right. Grow their major donor base beyond just what they already have, taking care of who they already have on the roster?

00:06:42 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, it's such a great question. You're right. We run into that a lot. Here's what I would start to say to me. I love this 10, 20, 70 guideline and meaning. When I look at a healthy organization, about 10% of their donors give about 60% of their operations budget. The next 20% gives about 20% of their operations, and the remaining 70% give about 20. So think about that kind of majors, mid and general. Right. I agree with you. We want to build towards health. If I'm coaching and consulting with an organization that is too heavy, major gift wise, again, we start with where we are. But major donors don't want to be on this treadmill to where they don't see sustainability. So a lot of times what I'll do is talk about here's a growth plan. And major donors love, many of them love building the capacity to where you could grow other areas of your revenue streams. So instead of just thinking, hey, we're dependent on this for the next five years, we need more and new, what about looking at putting a strategy together over the next two to three years to where we could grow those other areas that will be a lot more sustainable and look at major donors as funding it. Most of the time they can buy into a vision or a plan that they could really see results to. So it's not that we're going to stop growing our major donors, that's great, we know what that brings in. But leverage that to where we're growing all our audiences and we're in a whole different place three years from now. And that's totally doable.

00:08:07 - Matt Lombardi
I love it. That's so key because you're now involving your major donors in the actual you're kind of giving them a pee behind the curtain and saying, hey, here's where we are. You know, you're funding this. You know, if you're the reason we exist, if you pull out, we don't exist anymore. But we don't want it to be that way forever. You're giving them a vision of what could be to where you can grow in health. And donors just love seeing that vision for the future and hey, okay, yeah, I get it. I want to support it, but I want it to besides me. So it's a great strategy.

00:08:35 - Brian Hurd
Well, and a principle that I learned early on, people help support what they help create. So you have those kind of ministry partners and they might not be your whole file, but what are those key board members, key investors that want to be a part of rolling up the sleeves with you and then they're more bought in to see you grow again. I think they just see that opportunity to where maybe they're your largest one or two funders. I left an organization that I was consultant with. It's a large organization. Now it's 100 million. But we had our key funder there and we started tracking 50 and $100,000 gifts. And they were involved with helping us motivate others to be a part of that strategy because they knew they were heavily involved with us. But once we unlocked the fact so they helped be sponsors on events, they helped do videos. So a real tangible way to where several years later, they saw a lot of other their peers funding at a significant level like they did. Again, it took a strategy to share that with them, but we weren't thinking of them just every year as their same, what are the other ways we could use their influence, their buy in and their capacity to help us grow?

00:09:45 - Matt Lombardi
That's huge. I could go and just kind of focus in on that for a long time, I think, because I have so many more questions, so I'm going to limit it to one follow up question to that as well, and then we'll move on to the rest of our scripted normal show. Okay. If you had to give just unsolicited, out of context advice that you wish most nonprofit fundraisers knew about major donors, what would be a few pieces of advice that you would say, hey, this is not common wisdom, but this is something I deeply believe about engaging with major donors. Any Brian Heardisms or quips or things that you're like, hey, this is uncommon thinking around this, but I've just found this to be really true in 28 years and 100 plus ministries.

00:10:27 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, I love that question, and that's the question we should all be thinking and really praying through, because I think that's key. If you can answer it, a couple of things stand out with that question. One is just a transformational mindset versus transactional. Sometimes I'll hear people say, this is my best donor that just left. And I'm like, what's the criteria for that? Well, they were given the highest gifts. Well, that doesn't relate at all to them being most bought into your cause. You have to think this isn't a numbers game. We're really building a partnership with a ministry partner over many years. And so sometimes I think we overcomplicated. If you and I were developing a relationship, I'm going to be intentional about that relationship. I'm going to think through, hey, every once in a while, I'm going to get to know Matt and his family. We tend to overthink it. I think the other thing that's been a nugget, too is seldom. Most organizations know the DNA of their program and kind of what makes them tick. A lot of times that's a glimpse into how to do their major gift fundraising. Like, don't have a whole separate pathway for major gift fundraising. What's the DNA of how you serve your clients, the purpose, the cause? Many times we want to overlay that with how we treat our major ministry partners because that's what they're drawn to in the first place. So don't think of it as a siloed revenue engine. How do we look at them as almost a part of our extension of clients and some of those same things we're doing there to bring them in on that?

00:11:52 - Matt Lombardi
That's huge. Yeah, we talk about this a lot with donors in general is, hey, how you get them is kind of how you keep them. And so if you get them with we talk about that. You get them with gimmicks. If you get them with transactional stuff that trips them up or tricks them into giving yeah, you're going to have to keep doing that stuff to keep them. Right. If you get them with relationship investment, intentionality care, like almost a pastoral relationship with them where you feel like they really are ministry with you, then guess what? Keeping them as a major donor is as simple as just consistently being in relationship with them to that point. We overcomplicate it so often, and I love that.

00:12:33 - Brian Hurd
One thing I'd share as a nugget that has helped others, the average major donor. So somebody may be given 100,000 north a year, if you will, a couple. They give to 19 different organizations. Matt that's what I've found over the years. I give to about 19. Where they give to causes two through five normally is 50% to 60% of their total giving. So sometimes we need to be careful. We might be working with a ministry partner that's got a lot of capacity, but we might be organization number 17. We got to understand where we are and start from there to build that journey and really celebrate these other things and see do we really fit where they might want to give, the bulk of their giving? And if not, I think we honor them where they are. But many times, if we're really aligned with their cause, where their heart and passion and causes and our vision is is the best place for a major gift. So I remind people, you're dealing with people that are giving to a lot of different organizations. Be patient. Look at that as a long term journey.

00:13:32 - Matt Lombardi
That's huge. And talk to me more about the journey that's something we said we were going to hit on we haven't gotten to yet. If you figure out, okay, well, we're number 15 on their list, but we'd love to be number two on their list, what does that process look like? And even help me understand what's a realistic timeline. Right. It's obviously not going to be weeks or months, right. It's going to be years. But how would you suggest a nonprofit? How do you develop that person who, you know, hey, they've got the capacity for us to be number one or number two on their heart. How do we get them there?

00:14:03 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, I think first and foremost, major donors ask three questions. They may not say it, they ask it, but they think three things why should I give? Where should I give, and how should I give? So the why really speaks to just their overall motivation for giving. It could be a lot of different things. It could be a sell of a business or whatever. So we got to ask quality questions, I guess, is the short answer. Where to give is the causes they care about. If I'm always equipping teams asking them, do you really know what your major donors care about? And if it's not us as much are we helping them receive joy in how to give? But it could be us by asking better questions about the causes and the reasons they care. And then lastly is how? So that's more of a vehicle are they giving out a cash and stocks or donor advice funds or whatever it be. We need to know those kind of things when we're developing relationships. We should always be asking. And then to me, when you think about the donor cycle, especially the activities of a yearly cultivation solicitation stewardship plan, I would say probably about 90% of the clients I've worked with over the years don't do stewardship. Now, that's not just thanking your donors. They do that. But I'm talking about real reporting back to say, Matt, here's, how your investment this year, whether it's 10,000 or whatever, has made an impact. If you do that, you'll separate yourself from so many others, and you start to build confidence that, wow, this is a good place with a good ROI, and it'll stand out from so many others. So that's a couple of things that I would start with to start building with the team.

00:15:37 - Matt Lombardi
And it all starts the good questions. All starts the good questions, right? Okay. So questions for you then. I'm going to ask you to go really macro level here and give some hot takes. So what's a trend you're seeing in Christian nonprofits right now, specifically around fundraising that you're really excited about? And then on the other side of that, what's the trend you're seeing in Christian nonprofit fundraising right now that you're a little concerned about? So I'll give you an opportunity to kind of be Mr. Positivity and you got to be Mr. Negativity, but I'll give you an opportunity to at least get on your bully pool pit a little bit concerning you.

00:16:11 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, I think what excites me is those that have really thought about being sophisticated and think about who they already have as far as their donor base and really going deep. So deep retention, deep philosophy around, really retaining their development staff, because that's a key to me, too. You have development staff that turns over. You don't build the same kind of trust. So how are you hiring? What does that look like? And so the reason I think that's important is even since like eight, especially in major donors, they tend to be more strategic where they're given big gifts. And I think we've got to really understand who we're going deep with. It's not a numbers game. Again, it's very much transformational kind of mindset. 20 major donors over this next couple of years could change and fund your whole vision and while you're building the mids and general fund as well. So it's really about going deep. I think what scares me and what I've seen as a trend that's not working is when people assume that they can kind of take the shortcuts, especially with the major donors. Since we're kind of camping out there, I don't know of any shortcuts. Again, we go back to relationships. If I start taking shortcuts with my key relationships, I start making it all about me or focused. It might be easy in the time. But over time, I'm going to start to see that attrition of people that just have other places that are investing well. And I think we've seen a lot of those examples where organizations have gone from actually dipped and really fallen back because they were too transactional and not really mining those stewardship.

00:17:46 - Matt Lombardi
Right.

00:17:47 - Brian Hurd
Not really stewarding those that they already had.

00:17:49 - Matt Lombardi
Yeah. And that's something, I mean, I would echo that concern even in full transparency as someone who is a big advocate of technology, of automation, of helping scale up things and being smarter with. Sophistication in some of your segmentation with your donors, I see that as a trend that concerns me as well, is maybe even some of my generation who thinks, well, everything, we can just send a big blast and automate everything. And there's so much of major donor cultivation and stewardship is used the term that you just can't automate it, you can't microwave it. That's not the way that you do that. And so it concerns me sometimes when I go to conferences or hear tech companies talk, we can do this for your major donors and automate this. And it's like, that's a relationship. The last thing you want is two of your major donors out on a fishing boat somewhere getting the same automated text at the same time saying thank you from your president. Exactly. Right now the facade has been pulled back. Right. So, yeah, that's a concern I share as well. Just a lack of attention to the intentionality and just the work that it takes honestly to cultivate great major donor relationships. So totally agree. Last question for you today, and I'll let you hop off resource, whether it's a podcast book, article, what's something that you recommend to a lot of your friends who are in the nonprofit space, whether that's clients, whether that's business partners, whether that's colleagues that you work with. Are there some resources that you love that you love to recommend?

00:19:11 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, I think two things come to mind. One is a couple books. I love Henry. Nowan's, the spirituality of fundraising. I read that every year. It's a small book, but it's philosophical, just kind of the platform for why we do what we do. I think it's great. I think there's a couple other books that I think help us. Most people I know in this industry, they're either generous or we're cultivating them to be generous, and that gives them the ability to really help others in that journey. So I love the treasure principle by randy alcohor and even the blessed life by robert morris. It just talks about how we can look at whatever we have and steward. So I love that. And then the other thing, I just remind people, I just got off a phone call today. Reach out to other people in the industry. We are always learning. Don't be afraid. It's amazing what we can learn and have the opportunity with others that are doing things well and just gleaning from them. Kind of like what I love about what your podcast is doing, it's just trying to share and give opportunities and I think those are the two things, resources, but I'm not against conferences or any of those. We just went to a premiere where we met by next after. I'm just saying there's a lot of people like us that will give 30 minutes and so to invest in others.

00:20:23 - Matt Lombardi
I love it. I love it. Brian, where can people find more about you? Obviously you lots of work with the Colson Center, but you've also got your own consulting, which I know you've been doing for a long time now. How can people connect with you? What's the best way to find you online? Whether they want to just shout at you on LinkedIn or whether they maybe want to connect with you to hop up and set up one of those 30 minutes calls.

00:20:41 - Brian Hurd
Yeah, I'd be happy to. That's what I'm all about. So you can find me on LinkedIn. My website is Legacy Five Consulting. The number five. Legacy five consulting. My email is Brian at legacy WeGive as well, or my number is 214-76-3155. You can send me a text and we could do it that way. So, yeah, if I could be of value to others in this industry, that's how I've been groomed and appreciated the people that have answered my call.

00:21:10 - Matt Lombardi
Awesome. Well, Brian, I've learned a ton. Like super excited. Probably just going to call you randomly because I now have your number and I'm just going to call you back. Hey, bro, I need advice on this or that. I know everyone else is going to find it super valuable as well. So I so appreciate your time, brother. And yeah, thanks for joining us on the Holy Donuts podcast today.

00:21:28 - Brian Hurd
Thanks, Matt. Appreciate what you're doing.