00:00:04
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Holy Donuts podcast. I'm your host, Matt Lombardi, and I am joined today by someone who's a good friend, kind of special podcast. Not someone who's a guest from a nonprofit organization, per se, but my good friend Jonathan Beck, founder at WeGive, who is, full disclaimer, sponsor of this podcast. Get that out of the way in advance.
00:00:27
No nefarious intent here or anything like that, but Jonathan, man, thanks so much for joining me today. How's it treating you out in sunny Southern California? Good. Yeah. Not super sunny right now, but it has been pretty good.
00:00:39
Yeah. These are the months where you remind yourself, that's why you deal with what you deal with to live here. Absolutely. Cool. Well, thanks for being on the show.
00:00:49
So why don't you start a little bit this way? Probably some people out there who, when they hear like, oh, yeah, you founded we give, like, a tech payments company for nonprofits. How does one even get into that world knowing your backstory, like, dad was a preacher. How do you even find yourself in that space? There's probably a lot of people who don't really get to see inside that world much.
00:01:12
So just share with a little bit folks. How do you get to the point where you are and we give. Feel free to give the 30,000 foot view. Just share a little bit of your history. how you got to.
00:01:20
Yeah, 30, not ten. Yeah, 30. Real high up. I don't want you going too long. Yeah.
00:01:28
I mean, dad was a pastor, but grew up in the Silicon Valley, so got into tech real easily. Basically just everyone gets jobs with their friends or family, friends or connections that they have. And those up there happen to usually be tech companies. Yeah, I got into tech and I think I went to Pepperdine for college.
00:01:55
They pushed that pretty heavily, know, give back kind of thing. So I don't know, kind of just grew up in that world with my dad being a preacher and was always into that space, so got some experience in payments in fintech and decided to move over here. Yeah. And so what year did you find? WeGive started.
00:02:23
We give in what was originally called give list. Cool. Yeah, started that in 2018 legally. So, legally speaking, before it was 2018, it was originally a mobile app. There are a bunch of these apps that came out around kind of that same time.
00:02:48
Google had one that failed. Called one today. There were a couple of others. And, yeah, it was basically trying to sort of do what's happened in investing, which is things have moved into, like, robo advisor. It's been really democratized.
00:03:03
Anyone can kind of come in and invest a portfolio style giving which is sort of reserved for foundations, big private foundations, and I guess sort of donor advised funds as well. And so it's kind of a democratized donor advised fund. Find nonprofits you care about, be able to give to them easily and then be able to see what's going on with those donations. Turns out no one cared. People acted like they cared if they'd fund their donor advice fund, but couldn't get nonprofits to post or send any information back into the application.
00:03:38
When they did, though, the engagement skyrocketed. People were really into seeing some groceries that their church bought for a family, some content that they probably might not get shared. Those small little, kind of raw moments might not get shared on a Sunday, right. Or on social media. It's kind of maybe not appropriate for an Instagram post or something, but privately, with a community of people giving to fund activities like that, that is something that is appropriate.
00:04:13
And so people would really take to those. And my background being in payments, me and somebody started a large payments company back in 2012 ish. And so I had some experience there and was like, well, I think we should spin this out to nonprofits and churches specifically to be able to put this on their site instead of trying to drive people into an app. That's kind of the story. We went 10,000ft, though.
00:04:43
I tried to keep it at 30. No, it gets a little more. Yeah. So one of the things I know, because we obviously get a chance to work with, we give on a regular basis and clients on that. One of the heartbeats behind WeGive is helping nonprofits communicate impact to their donors, like actually seeing where their giving is going.
00:05:05
So with that in mind, one of the questions I usually ask guests who are in the nonprofit space is what's a strategy, what's a tactic, what's a tool that has been really effective for you in your nonprofit career? I'd like to say a little bit and say for you, why is the impact, communicating impact such a big deal for we give and for you personally? And what are some kind of best practices around that, that you'd recommend to nonprofits? Yeah, I really teed myself up there.
00:05:39
I think it's a really important question because a lot of nonprofits aren't asking that.
00:05:46
And it's really, this is what I always say when we're presenting the tool. I always say when people donate, they're purchasing something, actually, and they're purchasing meaning for themselves by giving and knowing that you're an agent of action behind some kind of positive thing that's going to happen in the world. You're purchasing a feeling that you're making a difference and that your life matters. And not all of us are called to be in the field doing things that are awesome all day long. And so we get to share in that by purchasing some of that meaning through donating.
00:06:37
And that product's not delivered via Ups or the postal service. That product's delivered through communication.
00:06:47
And it's the organizations that communicate the stories. Right. It's really what it is, a story that I can attach to my identity that, hey, this kid had a cleft palate and his father didn't want to have a relationship with them. And then they fix his cleft palate and now all the kids play with them in the village and everyone starts crying and pulling their checkbooks out. It's like, okay, well, but that's a true story and it matters, right?
00:07:15
And people want to be a part of that. And so that's okay to share those stories of impact and it's actually what you should be doing to steward those donations. Well, so that's kind of the whole concept was emotionally sort of how we feel about the space. But then if you look at the numbers, the numbers back it up dramatically. Right.
00:07:36
I think it's the number one reason people give by far. If you look across the different studies, and this wasn't my idea originally, I mean, this has sort of been pulled together by captains of industry, if you will, as we've sort of really focused on doing this from a product standpoint. The number one reason by far is people give to feel like they are making a difference. And the number one reason people stop giving is because they don't feel like they were communicated with about how their gift made a difference. And we're talking like really significant numbers.
00:08:16
And when you look at it, I'm a big key performance indicator, OKR numbers guy coming from kind of VC and startup world. When you look at nonprofit as an industry compared to other industries, the retention rates for nonprofit are horrific. Really bad. Compared to other business models and first time donors, average retention rates float around 20% typically. Right.
00:08:49
You go into a church's database, they'll have 15, 20,000 people in their database, in their CRMs, and they'll have 2000 givers.
00:09:03
Exactly what's going on and think it comes down to that. So, yeah, for us, I think that's why it's a big deal. And the second part of your question was kind of tactics and tools around doing those practices. Yeah. Well, I think it's communication ultimately.
00:09:37
And I think communication in ways that people are used to getting communicated with and in ways that give people station and are persistent. Right. So when my church shares a story about we partner with a refugee camp in Tijuana because we're in San Diego, it's right there. And so we'll do a toy drive or something like that, or we'll send people down there that volunteer for certain things every other week. And some really cool things happen when there happens to be time for the pastor to share something about that.
00:10:19
Usually there's no media created. If you happen to be there and he happens to have time, people happen to hear that story. Great. But it's not persistent, then that falls off the back. Right.
00:10:35
Versus having a specific portal where I have station. Right. I have identity, I can log in, and there's a place where stories like that can live persistently on my profile and my account that I can go back to.
00:10:59
I guess I would call that a donor portal, but I think it comes down to communication the way people are used to it. Right. People communicate now with text. They go on websites. Asynchronous communication, synchronous communication.
00:11:13
Email in person is, of course, always the best as far as in the moment. But I think taking those and creating persistent communications specifically, I think the donor portal is fantastic. I think text is great. Right? Texas at 90 something percent open rate.
00:11:29
People vary on the studies there, whereas a lot of nonprofits are just sending email newsletters. Got a 20, 30% open rate. Right. Even when you do open it, the engagement is really low. It's like 2% click rate.
00:11:40
Whereas if you send everyone a text, hey, Jonathan, thanks so much for giving. Here's an impact update from our refugee camp in Tijuana. I know you care about that. You've been donating to it. Let me know if you have any questions.
00:11:54
Right. That's going to have a hundred percent open rate and a really high click rate. So I think people that treat the ways to engage and these channels realistically and well, which is sort of what you see in the for profit world as well. Right. The companies that are killing it with their marketing and communications are the ones that are using the new tools, but using them well, correctly.
00:12:22
Yeah, no, I think one of the things that we've seen, even working with we give is the more you can have consistency, I'd say even like behavior based personal communications. Right. The more likely your donors are going to feel right because it's personal behavior based. I like that. Behavior based.
00:12:41
So it's oh well, I just had an unsuccessful payment and now I get what feels like a personal email saying, hey, looks like your card sale. We'd love to help you out with this. Or maybe it's on the positive side. Hey, you just gave this special giving Tuesday thing above and beyond your typical monthly recurring gift. We know that's a stretch for you.
00:12:57
Thank you so much. Those sort of behavior based personalized communications. Personalization. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's another way, I guess, for me to say it.
00:13:07
That's more than 30,000 and not 5ft, which is personalized, meaningful, personalized communication consistently instead of big video productions. And everyone gets to see it once on Sunday, a quick email check in and a ten second video. Hey, how's it going? Here we are, blah, blah, blah. Thank you so much.
00:13:28
Boom. Those perform better than even the really produced stuff. And it's personalized, it's not spammy, it feels real. And so you're able to make an emotional connection. Yeah.
00:13:42
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00:13:52
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00:14:11
Portal, events, pledges, surveys, segmentation on and on. We could go on. The features and those checkouts though, smoother than my attempt to make homemade donuts, which let's just say, didn't quite rise to the occasion. See what I did there? With we give's innovative engagement tools, your donors won't just feel the love, they'll be coming back for second because nothing says thanks for your dough better than a world class experience.
00:14:37
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00:14:48
So let's look at it. I would love to hear some of your perspectives. You have a unique voice speaking into. You talk to a lot of nonprofits on a regular basis, right? You talk to a lot of customers, a lot of potential customers, logged network kind of contacts in the industry. What are you seeing as a trend that's got you a little bit concerned about nonprofits for the future.
00:15:06
And what's a trend on the other side that has you really excited for ministries and nonprofits out there? Yeah, I think that trend wise for nonprofits and ministries specifically, I think some of the, I guess the decision making I'm seeing, motivation wise and the tools that organizations will choose has me concerned. I haven't been working nonprofit for 30 years, but seeing some of the decision making being really fear driven and really, like, archaic. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's, I mean, you hear it from all the, all the consultants in the industry sort of say the same thing as well.
00:16:14
Right? Where it's like, yeah, no, they decided not to go with that. Sandy is just going to do the typical mailer campaign that she does every year that worked that one time and brought in 130k. Woohoo. Versus really investing.
00:16:31
It's sort of like a government job where the only way to succeed is by not messing up is the way a lot of people sort of think. But then you meet some people that don't think that way. And those organizations, you really see that you actually can look at the growth rates because you can compare. The 990s are like. Whereas the other organizations that are just not rising to the cultural tide seem to be dying off a little bit.
00:16:58
Right?
00:17:00
I don't know. Because really what you're competing for donors by, why should I donate to you? Versus international justice mission or something like that, right. When I can feel like I saved a girl from sex trafficking. That's going to make.
00:17:17
Versus getting a mailer, that is fear threatening me about something. I was going to die. Provide this food tomorrow. Yeah. Right.
00:17:29
So I don't know, I think some of the decision making surprised me, really. Risk based, fear based.
00:17:40
The more nonprofit leaders can also understand that in some ways, if we take a higher level theological view, like, listen, it's all God's money. There's plenty, right? There's plenty of opportunity for every single nonprofits. We're not in competition with each other, but we are in competition for the attention of donors. But then also of even, I would say, not just against other nonprofits.
00:18:02
And we talk about this with sales. Stuff all the time. Your competition is not your competitor. Your competition is every other priority that person has in their life that would put them above meeting with you. Right.
00:18:13
And it's the same thing for potential donors. You're not just competing for their attention against what else they could give for. You're also competing for their attention against every other thing they could purchase and listen, if it comes down to nonprofits, messaging is not compelling. You know what is compelling? A trip to Tahoe.
00:18:33
Right. I can spend my money there. Yeah, that's really compelling. I know what that's going to buy me in terms of happiness, joy, emotion. If you're not cutting through the noise, you're not just competing against, oh, well, this one emotional message from another nonprofit, or they're communicating, or they're actually spending the thoughtful time to think through their ad campaign this way or that.
00:18:56
You're also competing against everything that your donor could invest in besides your mission. Right. Which is why we're pivoting to a travel agency for Tahoe. Yeah, I love it. But if every travel company out there is using all the digital tools at their disposal to communicate why your donor should spend on their trip, you should probably be doing the same thing, because you're going to need to.
00:19:26
To counteract it. Yeah, I agree. So what's been a positive trend that you are actually excited about outside of maybe some of the fear based decision making? I'm seeing a generation of basically some guys in our generation, right, that are in their mid, late thirties and early 40s, people coming in from the corporate world and just killing it and just thinking about things the right way. Thinking about things, actually knowing what their donor retention rate is, actually knowing what their lifetime value per donor is, actually knowing what drives KPIs, what inputs create, what outputs.
00:20:11
Like actually holistically thinking about the business that way.
00:20:17
One guy that comes to mind is like Brady Josephson, who I think you had on two, three weeks ago or something. Like he's. He thinks about things in a really wise way. That reminds me of someone coming from a tech company, which he has, and he's working for an organization that sort of has led the way, to a degree, in thinking that way, right? So I see some really positive thinking.
00:20:46
I'm seeing that as well in the church, which is exciting. I'm seeing some organizations that are starting to kind of be like, well, why are we paying $6,000 a month for just a checkout on our site? So I'm seeing some good questions being asked as people are like, oh, there's other things out there that could do better. So some of that. I like that.
00:21:18
Love it. Yeah. Very cool. So what's a resource? What's something that I know you're a reader.
00:21:25
I know that we were just talking nerd down history podcast stuff before we even started recording. What's a resource that you like to put in people's hands? If maybe they're not familiar with what kind of a modern donor experience should look like, or maybe just if they're thinking through a different way to think of nonprofit work or ministry or operations, are there any resources, tools you like to kind of put in people's hands on a regular basis that you've really enjoyed? Yeah. Well, I guess let me answer that two ways.
00:21:57
One is I think if I was a nonprofit, I would be looking at and trying to learn what's possible. One, and two, what other kinds of digital experiences my customers, clients, donors, supporters, constituents are receiving elsewhere, right? Yeah.
00:22:33
For the top performing organizations out there that are just killing it with hundreds of millions in recurring donations, people that are retained sticking around. Why? What's the donor experience like over there? Right? Do they have a portal?
00:22:52
Are they sharing stories of impact? Are those stories of impact really produced? Are they raw? Are they texting their donors saying thank you? Is it personalized communications?
00:23:04
I think go to some of the great nonprofits out there and go check out their donor experience. Go give $5 and see what the donor experience is like. Because I do that a lot. A lot of times how I anchor our demos is like this. Look how terrible your experience is.
00:23:22
Look how great it could be. And then I work as an advisor for, a growth advisor for one of the premier venture firms in Southern California called Mucker Capital. And I do weekly or bi weekly calls with founders where they basically report to me on their growth. And I try to give them advice, basically, which is hysterical. I don't know how they have me in that role.
00:24:03
It's always some form of the same conversation, and I've been doing it for like four years now, or three years.
00:24:13
And for myself as well, I have found that some of the blogs for the growth industry, there's a bunch of them, and if you just Google best blogs for growth hacking or best blogs for finding product market fit, which are kind of like the two buzzwords where most of the good contents around you can find some just remarkable, not just guides, but just ways of thinking, how to measure and how to test and how to actually real frameworks around that whole growth framework, I think would be really useful in nonprofit, which I think Brady was highlighting the last time he was here. I'm sorry to bring him up again, but it's reminding me that he said that I think a lot of those frameworks are ways of thinking that can be tremendously helpful. Right? Absolutely. Yeah, I know.
00:25:16
Quick little book somewhere on the bookshelf back there. I'm not sure if it's hacking growth or growth hacking by Ryan Holiday. Really quick, easy read, right? If you're just interested, like, I don't even know what this is like, heard about it. It's a great little first primer to it.
00:25:32
Right? It's not going to tell you everything you need to know, but it's going to give you a pretty good base intro of like, oh, okay, cool. And then give you a good resource that you can go explore more kind of online and do the deep dive down the Google rabbit. So. Okay, Jonathan, this has been super helpful.
00:25:46
Thank you so much for taking the time. Come on. Love all the stuff you have to say, obviously. But if people want to get in contact with you, if they want to either schedule a demo with you or they're like, hey, questions about something you said. This kind of teed up something in my mind.
00:26:00
I need to talk to a team about what's the best way to reach out to you? What's the best way to connect with you? Email. Yeah, email is great. Yeah.
00:26:06
Jonathanbeck@WeGive.com awesome. Very cool. Are you active on social media at all? Anywhere they can connect with you there? No, it has to be email.
00:26:16
I very purposely don't have any social media accounts. I do have a LinkedIn. Awesome. Mostly because I don't even consider that social media. It's like saying cool.
00:26:30
Email or carrier pigeon are the way to get in touch with you. Carrier Pigeon would be sick. Yeah. If you want to send me a carrier pigeon, I would appreciate that a lot. Yeah, it really would cut through the noise.
00:26:40
Yeah, well, man, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And if you're watching, make sure you like, subscribe to the channel so you can stay up to date with all the most recent episodes. Until next time, thanks for joining us.
